this is bill harkleroad [aka zoot horn rollo] that i'm talking to and thanks very much for doing this interview. the first question i want to ask - which you've probably been asked before - was: how did you become the guitarist for 'trout mask replica'?

for 'trout mask replica' or for captain beefheart?

well, did it start before then?

well, actually: yeah. i was in the group before 'strictly personal' came out [which was in november 1968 - t.t.] and recorded some of the tunes that... - we were going to redo that album.

i have heard some really convoluted stuff: that it was recorded for mgm at one point --

i recorded two tunes in the studio as my first studio thing. frank zappa was the engineer and producer of that. we were going to redo the album - then a guy called bob krasnow kind of put out the album without anyone knowing! so we dumped what we had.

he is president of 'elektra records' now and i have heard from him that he is interested in reissuing that album - the unmixed album. i also heard that someone said that 'capitol' or 'emi' had got hold of it and might be putting it out on ceedee.

'strictly personal'?

yes.

before he added all the phasing and stuff?

yes.

interesting. anyway, your question was the 'trout mask replica' thing.

can you remember what the two tracks were?

'kandy korn' and 'moonlight on vermont'.

wow!

'moonlight on vermont' was going to be on that album, but ended up going onto 'trout mask replica'.

very interesting. so zappa was the producer of that, so he probably has the tapes -

probably, yes. i guess i don't know what is happening with this stuff now.

our mutual friend that connected us told me that the band when you were at that house where you rehearsed 'trout mask replica' had some famous visitors?

famous visitors?

yeah: he mentioned specifically mick jagger.

you know, i don't know whether he ever showed up at the house or not - i mean, we ran into him a lot. i remember him calling the house a lot, but i don't know if he ever turned up at the house, to tell you the truth.

yes, i think people don't realize that the band was already big in england, and had this following....

yeah, definitely over there. well, i think the day i tried out for the band we ended up in this jam session in zappa's basement. and jagger was there, and he appeared to be pretty awestruck. like myself. actually zappa was the one. i thought he was just thé deal and i was pretty much too scared to death to even play! i was eighteen oe nineteen and i was playing with him and jagger who was a big star but i didn't have any feelings about, musically. there were six or eight of us - actually art tripp [ed marimba], who i ended up playing with a lot later, was there. and so i think that was the sort of the beginning of this. err, jagger had this thing for don and his voice; what his background was; what book of black magic he was into that week.

yes! there was a 'rolling stone' magazine story too that said something about paul mccartney had tried to sign you all to 'apple records'.

that could have happened, but that would have been before my time. there was a relationship there, for sure, but that was just before my time.

i told you about a 'warner brothers' promotional weekly which mentioned that an entire tour was filmed. it was with ry cooder opening for you [thus the early 1971 'captain beefheart and ry cooder in concert' series we know as the 'lick my decals off, baby' tour - t.t.]. the cooder film was going to show up on public television and apparently they were going to issue the beefheart film as a feature - do you remember that?

yeah. as a feature? i don't know how they could do it. i remember some of the filming. i remember dodging the camera an awful lot because it was just always there. but somehow i remember zappa connected to that, from being around. i wonder if he just turned up.

i wonder if he financed it?

i don't know if he did that, because at the time he was pretty - well, no: bizarre/straight was with reprise at the time so it was pretty connected. to tell you the truth: i can't remember - it was so long ago.

yes, nearly twenty-five years.

ry's first tour, where he was opening up.... so we were both filmed a lot - and i just remember frank showing up at a lot of places. maybe we just ran into him because he always had a camera, so maybe it was just seeing people with cameras and it was another one for me to hide from.

a friend of mine remembers seeing a local teevee talkshow in washington dc, and captain beefheart was the guest for half an hour. he showed clips from a fictional thing been filmed, which were going to be part of the film - do you remember anything about that?

no.

they may have been something like the cover of 'lick my decals off, baby' which had been staged in some sort of strange --

we did a teevee commercial in los angeles.

yes, i have seen that on video. that's wonderful: the 'lick my decals off, baby' ad with the flicking cards.

right, right.

a friend of mine found a copy of that: they repackaged it for 'the spotlight kid' too.... you were saying that zappa always had a camera, so did he film your concerts?

not necessarily concerts: just when he was around. i mean the footage; the photos of 'trout mask replica' were photos that frank took of us at the house - i just remember.

i have seen a clip, too - without a soundtrack - that was apparently done for 'trout mask replica'. everyone was in those strange costumes - strange sort of blue, it's very dark: sort of light blue and black, kind of tinted....

yeah. i remember that: fairly recently on vh1 [satellite tv program - t.t.] they had i don't know maybe '200 motels' - this thing that zappa did - then all of a sudden i see myself as this teenager on the tube! it was this thing from zappa's basement.

wow, this may have been the same thing. it must be very strange to see yourself and don't remember?

yeah, i remembered it when i saw it, but it was sort of woooah! it was always like going on what we were doing was so intense, sort of a vacuum environment.... it all kind of runs together outside of what our environment was. i just remember zappa having cameras, and laughing a lot: you know, just doing his thing.

someone told me that 'clear spot' was composed about the same time as 'lick my decals off, baby' - that there was a sort of discussion that you might even record that in 1970, that you did it live on a couple of dates to try out - do you remember that at all?

no, i don't. that doesn't sound right to me either.

i've also heard that a lot of the songs that showed up on later albums - even as late as 'ice cream for crow' - were composed then.

yes, definitely: a lot of those things.... those aren't albums i have gone back and listened to - as i read titles on them were titles of things that were, erm, who knows, i mean it was sort of like this stream for don. and, erm, what was this one?: something irene....

'harry irene'?

yeah, 'harry irene'.

someone told me it was about a pair of lesbians --

not that i remember!

it had these puns about a couple of lesbians....

well, i remember most of his stuff was pretty open ended. let people run with it.

open to interpretations, yeah.

that tune existed even before i was in the band. he just rambled these things and then they finally turned into songs later, whether they were finished.... how much was written at the same time? half of it he stuck together with another piece. you know, it was a kind of cut and paste thing at times.